RIA Zone - Comments for "Java Applets "Dead Man Walking?" Is a Comeback Impossible?"

Ahmet, click on the link I

netsql — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:46:51 -0400

Ahmet, click on the link I gave and see how many installs they have.

Right. Lots of time and

mediarazzo — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:05:57 -0400

Right. Lots of time and energy bashing each other. Very little time and energy informing the world outside of Java that Swing performance had actually improved. That's called poor focus. Something I don't think Sun has improved on.

@MediarazzoI completely

bbuffone — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:43:21 -0400

@Mediarazzo

I completely agree, Sun needs to get out their and put visible effort into the pushing desktop and web-based Java clients. The problem I see is that unless it comes from Sun they don't like it. If it isn't swing-based the Java pundits bash it. I remeber back to the conversations between swing vs. SWT. IMO - who cares. Choices and different approaches are needed, especially in client-side computing.

Allow me to clarify. What I

mediarazzo — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:34:46 -0400

Allow me to clarify. What I should have said is that Sun needs to *visibly* tout Java desktop success (including the fact they are pounding the pavement to get deals). Is this being done right now? Who knows. The real issue is, do the right people know it's going on.

And why is this important?

Ask yourself how everyone knows that Flash has a 95% penetration rate on the desktop. Because Adobe makes it a point for everyone to know, including the business people. Now what is Java's penetration rate on the desktop? Don't seem to hear much about that. Googling around (I tried: Java desktop penetration rate) reveals that most penetration numbers attached to Java are more than three years old. And even then, they were still behind Flash.

It's one thing to be on a tech board, with tech people, and say go to your local electronics shop and do such and such. That response won't fly when it's time to convince upper management to use Java, especially when they all know about Flash's availability.

> Pounding the pavement,

tdv — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:44:43 -0400

> Pounding the pavement, knocking on the doors of Dell, HP, Gateway, etc., ensuring the latest Java goes out on every machine is where the difference will be made.

What makes you think this isn't being done? Go check the machines in your

local electronics shop, see how may of them have Java preinstalled.

At least here in the US most major pc manufacturers have Java preinstalled. (although most

have java5 last time I checked).

Dmitri

You make a good point but I

mediarazzo — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:22:17 -0400

You make a good point but I think the whole Applet/client discussion misses the larger point. The primary deployment problem is not a tech issue, it's a business issue.

The virtual machine is part application, part operating system. Sun, however, treats the distribution of the VM as an application (relying on developers who aren't the greatest channel) when they should treat it like an OS (taking care of distribution themselves through deals). As a result, there is scattered support for Java on the client.

Macromedia avoided this mistake and took responsibility for Flash on all major platforms. The move paid off. Deploying a Flash application is really no different than deploying Windows application. Pick your target platform and go.

Sun can get back into the game but my guess is they'll come up short on the business end. Fixing the tech problem is the easy part. Pounding the pavement, knocking on the doors of Dell, HP, Gateway, etc., ensuring the latest Java goes out on every machine is where the difference will be made.

The problem with Java on the

bbuffone — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:47:02 -0400

The problem with Java on the client is a failure to separate the deployment of the clients with "Applets" and the underlying way of developing the applications. The applet deployment mechanism is a fairly robust way to initiate application in a secure sandbox. It does have flaws, namely speed of startup (Fixing in Java 6), but nevertheless its pretty good.

I wrote a article on how Nexaweb (full disclosure - I work there) overcame the deployment issues as well as other issues. http://dev.nexaweb.com/blogs/nexablog/?p=9. The result of fixing the issues with client side Java has resulted in over 7000 deployments of Enterprise applications with Client-side Java runing in a browser.

Java provides an increased in processing power and richness of application over Ajax or Flash-based applications. The other benefit is that there are way more 3rd party software, tools and components that can be used with Java.

dude. there are far less

afsina — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:46:25 -0400

dude. there are far less than 4 billion computers in the world.

It's quite simple, flex

netsql — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:26:06 -0400

It's quite simple, flex acction script 3 (latest) is deployed on 4 billion users (http://www.onflex.org ) and couting.

Easy to deploy.

Java Webstart/applets later version is deployed on hundreds of end users and very hard and cofusing to deploy.

Java 7 "easy to deploy for consumers" has mostly visible help for "setup.exe" type apps(and very few resources spent implementing, vs marketing noise), very litte for applets that would help catch up to the 4 billion end users. Just look at the rate of new addoption on onflex.org for action script 3 vs rate of new addition of latest run time for applets.

As a devloper, I don't care how hard it is, show me the end users!

I have to confess I am in

mp98946 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:46:30 -0400

I have to confess I am in the camp that Applets and Java as we know on the client is dead. Adobe has executed its as simple as that, they have built a small foot print install runtime will all the sexy features needed. I have just started to code in Flex Builder and I am impressed at how easy it is to use and be constructive. Flex and AIR is a good story for RIA and Rich Client solutions. I think the fact that Java didnt wake up to the power of the 3 key OS graphics engines and W3C just didnt react quickly enough is the reason Java is lagging. I just think it is way to late for Applets to step up to this space, they could have 3-4 years ago once WPF, XGL and Core Anminations on Mac OS arrived, but the Sun guys still couldnt see Java talking native Widgets. Anyway, all the interesting containers Silverlight, Flex, iPhone etc are all using native level OS calls to get the job done, I cannot see Java or W3C getting their heads around this for a while, maybe Eclipse E4 might be the Desktop UI app platform, just maybe ?

Cheers

Matt

You're right. Sun has a

carcour — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:26:26 -0400

You're right. Sun has a great technology but lacks the designer knowledge, the latest article on java.sun.com http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/scripting/javafx/ria_2/ make you say what's so new about JavaFX, the articles should show instead how to create stunning GUIs using JavaFX, we need people like Romain Guy and Chet Haase but unfortunately both of them have left. Synth is a great example of a good technology that was never used because of the lack of tools available.

I had the good fortune of

mediarazzo — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:09:43 -0400

I had the good fortune of working on several projects that used Applets as recently as 2005. I also had the misfortune of having those same projects adopt Flash as the primary solution.

The gap between Flash and Applets, in terms of development and deployment, is huge. Much larger than most people want to admit. Flash is vying for the "Can't get fired for using Flash/Flex" mantle. Sun's current effort to fix things, while welcome, don't even match what Flash has been doing for years. Releasing a consumer-friendly JRE is not nearly enough. Sun needs to be addressing today's decision makers, that is, business people and designers. No comeback will happen without them. And as Andy above states, tools and media are vital. In fact, they're deal breakers.

No tools, no media, no ease of deployment? Then no big future for Java in RIA.

Applets can make a come back

carcour — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:06:29 -0400

Applets can make a come back with JavaFX if Sun releases a quality designer tool for JavaFX. The new plugin speed needs also to be improved if it takes 1-2s to launch the JVM it won't cut it for RIA consumer apps, Java needs to start as fast as Flash but I don't know whether this can be done.

I've said it before and I'll

adepue — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:35:39 -0400

I've said it before and I'll say it again, never underestimate the power of an excellent designer tool and solid video support - two things still lacking from JavaFX.

One thing I don't like about

alpha512 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:41:20 -0400

One thing I don't like about Flex is the mix of MXML with Actionscript, It can use code behind but as always I will find like this mess kind of projects all over and it is a pain in the neck to maintain or debug. Flex doesnt follow patterns and I think is just a big mess.

The other day I installed Firefox on Vista but for some reason I couldn't install flash plugin on it. I don't trust this kind of solution that maybe Joe also can't setup his flash plugin or it doesn't have the lastest plugin.

First it was Rails and now the community searching on Flex?, I will say better don't fool around and continue to work in Java, applets are not dead and as many said wait for J6uN and JavaFX.

Web programming with markup as JSP will have it place in the future and for a long time, Some users don't like the idea to bloat their browser or install 3rd party plugins, they just want it just works with a simple browser. Users wants simple and easy to use "It just Works". Users in this times they don't want to deal with deployment's, installers, PC requirements, so on. That's why we moved from desktop and client/server to the Web and Distributed.

RIA Zone - Comments for "Java Applets &quot;Dead Man Walking?&quot; Is a Comeback Impossible?"