Java Applets "Dead Man Walking?" Is a Comeback Impossible?

It's difficult to say. But, first, I'd say that I don't believe to anybody categorically saying either "applets are dead" or "applets are going to beat Flex". Nobody can predict the future so certainly, because while it's true that Flex has two big advantage points 1) it's a nice integration of engineers and designers and 2) can be installed easily, Java is a much more powerful language and environment. For instance, it can do real multithreading and there's a huge availability of components, software and frameworks. The latter point being the most important, it's really critical to see whether JSE 6 Update N will deliver what has been promised.

 But there's another point. From my perspective, Applets are really unpopular for applications that deploy to the end user, while there are no problems if you're going to deploy in controlled environments (e.g. clients in a managed network). In my career from 1996 up to today I've always seen at least one applet per year in a project I've been involved in, even though I didn't work on all of them (up to a couple of years ago I was really focused on the server side). In all the cited projects the Applets have been deployed with success. In this segment point 2) can be addressed easily because computers are administered and point 1) is not so important since the human operator is not an end user - in any case, I'm seeing customers that are pretty good in delivering decently designed stuff from the graphical point of view, especially since when NetBeans Matisse is available and after the success of the Filthy Rich Clients book by Romain and Chet. Once point 1) and 2) are not an issue, Java beats Flex hands down, since the language is much more powerful, as I have already said. A third critical point has been the AWT Thread issues that did cause some troubles, but in the latest years I see that customers are better advised about that. So I dare to say that it's likely that both Applets and Flex have a future, what I can't really predict for sure is which will be their strength ratio. Note that I didn't ever cited JavaFX or the graphic design tools that Sun might deliver, since we are still waiting it is completed, that in any case might have a role in this battle.

I am working with Flex and I don't like it for one reason. Flex isn't java technology and every Java object translates into ActionScript object. I can't make remote calls from Flex without recreating new object from existing by manual copying all properties.

Swing is hard to write yes thats true but swing is cool swing have many many components swing have nice ideas. Flex making of gui is easy and fast yes but coding on C# or WPF is easy too ? If you ask me applets will be fine with Update N They start very very fast even on coldstart of the jvm maybe the only problem si that swing programming is harder so maybe JavaFX will help there or eFace ( yes i know that it uses sWT but for now.. ) or somethink like Groovy's Swing Builders ( grovyy can run on applet ).

Applet is not dead for a major reason : the powerful of Java on the client side. A simple example : i made an application for physician, in France they have a card to identify them. If i want to use this card to login on the web app, Applet is the only tehnology i can use to do that. It's impossibile with Flash Player or Gears at now.

What is sure is that Applet is not the good choice for RIA : plugin too much bigger and no easy to install for final users, no design tool for Swing, no collaborative tools with designer (it's the power of Adobe). But if you need specific used on web app with OS interaction on the client side (COM port, Bluetooth, ...) Applet will stay a good solution and the only one which integrate security aspect (by certificate) for this type of used.

My worry is that the exsiting signing depolyment issues will still haunt "Java 6.0 Update N". Perhaps more so as much of the Swing/2D changes are geared towards JavaFX. The intergeral JavaFX binding will no doubt use reflection in some fashion (beansbindings?) and so will need sigining if its to devlivered via Applets or Web Start. So Verisign stands to be a big winner here if everything suddenly needs signing (Isn't this why the JavaFX articles dont often provide runnable demos?).

So we're back to age old Applet or Java Web Start issues, and wheter to go for "All Permissions" or use Web Starts finer grained security permission requests. My problem with the "ask for to permission to do x" approach is that you're coupling to JNLP - so no option to run as a normal standalone executable jar. Plus you make the user suffer the unpopular Windows Vista UAC nag dialogitis (not an attractive option for sexy RIA widgets either). "All permisions" is of course a security risk and we lack useful gradings in-between (well there is one, but its pretty limited - too limited for reflection). Unpinning the standing approachs is its almost impossible for the user to determine what kind of risk they're actually taking. The permisions have the most random names and even I (as a developer) don't fully understand their individual let alone combined limits. I'd rather be able to say "Yes run this app, but only on my own terms" for example disallow access to the filesystem or network outside of my usual java.permissions area.

On the customer front you stand to scare them to death with the Java Web Satrt security warnings when the application starts. Can't help but feel the whole process isn't well suited to these sexy little semi-transparent, round-edged RIA widgets. Perhaps more of a problem is that behind that dainy little widget will be hiding the same old honking great JVM sucking up a disproportante ammount of resources. I'm proballaby being old-fashioned worrying about memory and cpu overheads.. but Java dosn't strike me as particuarly well suited for running lots of little RIAs. Havn't heard of the MVM in an age, but even then you'd have to be using a good many applications at once. Java's only real advantage is it's cross platform byte compatibility, but for Applets 10 years on we've got a host of (better?) alternatives in most situations that can offer the same compatibility and don't always require some arcane platform to be pre-installed (jre penetration still seems to be an issue).

 

Mike, I think Sun has anticipated your needs :-) What you are saying sounds exactly like JavaFX running on Java SE 6 Update 10. Now even if one would use JavaFX, a powerful authoring tool would still be needed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, never underestimate the power of an excellent designer tool and solid video support - two things still lacking from JavaFX.

I had the good fortune of working on several projects that used Applets as recently as 2005. I also had the misfortune of having those same projects adopt Flash as the primary solution.

The gap between Flash and Applets, in terms of development and deployment, is huge. Much larger than most people want to admit. Flash is vying for the "Can't get fired for using Flash/Flex" mantle. Sun's current effort to fix things, while welcome, don't even match what Flash has been doing for years. Releasing a consumer-friendly JRE is not nearly enough. Sun needs to be addressing today's decision makers, that is, business people and designers. No comeback will happen without them. And as Andy above states, tools and media are vital. In fact, they're deal breakers.

No tools, no media, no ease of deployment? Then no big future for Java in RIA.

I have to confess I am in the camp that Applets and Java as we know on the client is dead. Adobe has executed its as simple as that, they have built a small foot print install runtime will all the sexy features needed. I have just started to code in Flex Builder and I am impressed at how easy it is to use and be constructive. Flex and AIR is a good story for RIA and Rich Client solutions. I think the fact that Java didnt wake up to the power of the 3 key OS graphics engines and W3C just didnt react quickly enough is the reason Java is lagging. I just think it is way to late for Applets to step up to this space, they could have 3-4 years ago once WPF, XGL and Core Anminations on Mac OS arrived, but the Sun guys still couldnt see Java talking native Widgets. Anyway, all the interesting containers Silverlight, Flex, iPhone etc are all using native level OS calls to get the job done, I cannot see Java or W3C getting their heads around this for a while, maybe Eclipse E4 might be the Desktop UI app platform, just maybe ?

Cheers

Matt

dude. there are far less than 4 billion computers in the world.

You make a good point but I think the whole Applet/client discussion misses the larger point. The primary deployment problem is not a tech issue, it's a business issue.

The virtual machine is part application, part operating system. Sun, however, treats the distribution of the VM as an application (relying on developers who aren't the greatest channel) when they should treat it like an OS (taking care of distribution themselves through deals). As a result, there is scattered support for Java on the client.

Macromedia avoided this mistake and took responsibility for Flash on all major platforms. The move paid off. Deploying a Flash application is really no different than deploying Windows application. Pick your target platform and go.

Sun can get back into the game but my guess is they'll come up short on the business end. Fixing the tech problem is the easy part. Pounding the pavement, knocking on the doors of Dell, HP, Gateway, etc., ensuring the latest Java goes out on every machine is where the difference will be made.

Allow me to clarify. What I should have said is that Sun needs to *visibly* tout Java desktop success (including the fact they are pounding the pavement to get deals). Is this being done right now? Who knows. The real issue is, do the right people know it's going on.

And why is this important?

Ask yourself how everyone knows that Flash has a 95% penetration rate on the desktop. Because Adobe makes it a point for everyone to know, including the business people. Now what is Java's penetration rate on the desktop? Don't seem to hear much about that. Googling around (I tried: Java desktop penetration rate) reveals that most penetration numbers attached to Java are more than three years old. And even then, they were still behind Flash.

It's one thing to be on a tech board, with tech people, and say go to your local electronics shop and do such and such. That response won't fly when it's time to convince upper management to use Java, especially when they all know about Flash's availability.

Right. Lots of time and energy bashing each other. Very little time and energy informing the world outside of Java that Swing performance had actually improved. That's called poor focus. Something I don't think Sun has improved on.